"Can't Beat that Feeling" (Of power and control over others)

[PAL]

With the trail system and the rink, we have a choice whether or not to purchase a pass or skate at the rink. With an MPD we would not have choice as our property taxes come into play,
If FOP had started smaller, with an outdoor pool and a different district. But they must have been encouraged to go for the top.
Just as if Early Winters had started very small and could have seen how that played out. But again, "their own worst enemy" took control. It could be said it was greed.
And good for us that they have gone overboard. Vote no on that Proposition.

[Fun CH]

If proponents of the indoor aquatic center want indoor swimming, they should set about building one. Isn't the ethos of the Methow Valley that non-profits do what others can't do?

That is exactly the ethos of the Methow Valley. Give to your communty however you can and don't take from people who can ill afford it.

And definitely don't pretend you are doing the taking for benefit of the people you are taking from because you know what's best for them.

FOP board member Justin Porter has already told us that a Mega Spa is his dream. The reasoning on how to achieve that dream and the morality of it comes secondary. Humans can justify anything, even dropping Napalm on innocent children.

As far as this Mega Spa being a tourist attraction, didn't the FOP feasibility study have projected revenue of something like $275,000 a year?

And don't forget that the FOP wants tax money for related existing and future projects. So if this proposition passes they're obviously going to have to pour money into the Wagner pool while the mega spa is being built in Winthrop.

Future projects could be a competitive climbing gym in Mazama that will support the commercial guiding industry. That's feasible if you understand that two FOP board members, most likely on the path to being highly paid Metropolitan Park District commissioners, have vested interests in commercial guiding in the North Cascades, ie North Cascade Heli-Skiing and North Cascade Mountain Guides.

Both of companies known to have violated the public Trust via special use permit violations and with NCH violating the law and inflicting environmental damage by cutting down a federally listed sensitive species to create multiple unauthorized helicopter landing sites. Those white bark pine trees that they cut down are now listed as a threatened species.

Why would anyone trust those people to get control of their tax dollars?

But as David says, they have no business plan to present to the voters. At this point they're just telling voters what they want to hear in order to gain enormous power on our dime.

[mister_coffee]

...
Your last point is an interesting one and one that many will debate. If proponents of the indoor aquatic center want indoor swimming, they should set about building one. Isn't the ethos of the Methow Valley that non-profits do what others can't do? I too enjoy skiing our great trail system and do so knowing that it is run as a nonprofit business. Maintenance of the trail system built by volunteers is offset by revenue collected from me and other users.

The practical question I would ask with respect to that: would it be possible to build the equivalent trail network today? I for one am doubtful that it would be. Largely because a lot of the easements on private land in the valley floor were made when there were a few large landowners and not the great many small landowners we have today. And effectively any one landowner has veto power over where a trail can go. Also when the whole thing got started in the late 1970s there were the right people in place to advocate for it with the right personal connections and vision to make it all happen.

If you compare the trail network in the upper valley (and a lot of it is now a year-round trail network) with the absolute struggle getting a trail from Winthrop to Twisp has been you start to understand how unique the circumstances were that made what we enjoy here even possible.

Oh, and I'd love to see a muscle-powered trail the length of the valley from Pateros to Lost River. I've advocated for it for years and I'm probably lucky that nobody has hunted me down and thrown me down a deep hole for even suggesting it.

We have a track record in the valley of remarkable capital campaigns. Recently the library and the Sunny M project both are stellar examples. If the folks advocating for a pool were able to pull together $15 million in direct donations, grants, and matching funds I think we'd be having a dramatically different discussion about a pool. I'd kick in a few bucks myself.

[SOulman]

Excellent points, David.

I, too, would enthusiastically endorse an appropriate project to replace the aging Wagner pool. The proposal for the indoor aquatic center is a bridge too far.

You questioned the cost figures. They come from the pool feasibility study consultants. Construction in 2022 was pegged at 20.1 million with an annual inflation of five percent annually. Operation/maintenance in 2022 was about $800,000 with a similar expectation of increases over time. Thus, we end up with at least $25 million to build and $1 million to operate by the time any possible project would come to fruition. Importantly, the proposal is for a large, complex public project. Initial planning cost estimates are uniformly wrong. (There is an entire field of academic research dedicated to this issue.)

Your last point is an interesting one and one that many will debate. If proponents of the indoor aquatic center want indoor swimming, they should set about building one. Isn't the ethos of the Methow Valley that non-profits do what others can't do? I too enjoy skiing our great trail system and do so knowing that it is run as a nonprofit business. Maintenance of the trail system built by volunteers is offset by revenue collected from me and other users. The same is true of the Winthrop rink as I understand it.

As a retired city planner, I wish that the whole process to this point had been done differently and possibly avoided the rancor we have. It is what it is. The community will make a choice about their priorities and we will move forward.

Steve Oulman
Winthrop

[mister_coffee]

Just my $0.02

I've tried to stay out of this discussion. Honestly from my perspective both sides have engaged in motivated reasoning and hyperbole. I've came down against this particular pool proposal, largely because I think the burden of proof is on those doing the ask. I could easily get behind a better pool proposal and would avidly support it if one were to happen.

Some of the things I think that need to happen:

• The ask is just too damned large. I think a reasonable ask would be on the order of twenty to twenty five percent of what they are asking. There needs to be a combination of private fundraising, matching grants, and an operations plan that makes up the difference. (I'm going on the ballpark figures of $20 million for the facility and $1 million per year for operations and maintenance -- and I have to admit that I have no idea where those numbers came from and if they are even remotely connected with reality).

• Timing. Putting forth an expensive proposal like this when people are already getting hit hard by property tax increases and inflation was a political non-starter. And foolish for the cause. Whenever somebody does come up with a decent proposal for a new pool they will face considerable headwinds because of this fiasco.

• Specificity. I think a whole lot about this proposal was insufficiently defined. This made it extremely easy for people opposed to it to put out worst-case scenarios as straw men that they could light on fire. It also amplified a lot of suspicions that people reasonably had about a new government entity with taxation authority.

• Project management. It wasn't clear to me if the people being put forward to run this circus were even remotely qualified to do so. This would be a large capital project. I know 100 percent that we are unlikely to be able to get people to manage a project like this without hiring them at considerable expense. I actually doubt we could even get people locally who'd be qualified to manage the managers.

• Articulate better what the pool is for. I think there are good cases for a great aquatics facility here. But I don't think that case was made. And I think a lot of the most vociferous advocates for the pool were spouting gibberish.

• To expand on the previous point, I think the behavior of a lot of the advocates for the pool were their own worst enemy. And their actions fed into a lot of the suspicions that people had about this whole effort.

Yes, a pool is a luxury in some ways. But so is skate skiing on Base Camp trail as opposed to hitting a snow park that is groomed twice a month. I'm not super impressed with the Wagner Pool and would be a lot happier to use a nicer year-round pool. Especially on those crummy days in Spring and Fall when there isn't yet any skiing but it is too damned cold or soggy to bike or hike. Or when it is too damned hot and smoky in August.

[SOulman]

David -

You make a fair point. At present our local swim team competes seasonally because most regional team have similar outdoor facilities. It's reasonable to think that it could change, but I don't think it changes the economics.

Many recreational and sporting events bring crowds to the Methow Valley and provide economic stimulus. None of the events require a public subsidy anywhere near what is contemplated by the indoor aquatic center.

[mister_coffee]

...
Now think about an indoor pool. Why would one travel any distance, say from cities on the west side, to swim? If one lives in or near a larger city one probably already has an indoor pool. Driving any distance to do laps for an hour, staring at the black line on the pool bottom that looks exactly like the one back home doesn't make much sense.
...

People do it all the time.

They are called swim meets. People literally travel hundreds of miles so kids can compete against other kids in a pool pretty much identical to the ones close to home. And even a medium-sized event can draw hundreds of swimmers. Which translates into around a thousand people staying in the area (parents and coaches) and eating at local restaurants. Granted realistically you could only put on such events once or twice a year. But still.

[SOulman]

I personally believe it is an overstatement to link an indoor aquatic center to visitors or tourism in the Methow Valley. An indoor aquatic center will mainly cater to local residents who want to swim when the weather is cold.

Think about the nature of tourism and what our valley offers. Successful destinations or amenity towns have a comparative advantage because of the local conditions -- scenery, activities, culture, etc. The Methow Valley is now known as an outdoor recreation mecca. One built attraction, the Winthrop rink, is successful and a draw for visitors because it is unique -- a quality outdoor rink with a fabulous view in a town that has a unique character courtesy of the "westernization" program.

Now think about an indoor pool. Why would one travel any distance, say from cities on the west side, to swim? If one lives in or near a larger city one probably already has an indoor pool. Driving any distance to do laps for an hour, staring at the black line on the pool bottom that looks exactly like the one back home doesn't make much sense.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but an argument that an indoor aquatic center would be an visitor draw or an economic benefit to the community is an extraordinarily weak argument.

Steve Oulman
Winthrop

[PAL]

And is it known that a complex such as proposed, would draw alot of tourists? These tourists that will not have paid via their property taxes to support a luxury mega spa that is created on the backs of those who live and work here. And we work very hard.
That image is definitely in our face.

[Fun CH]

When I saw this artwork today, it brought to mind the forces at play who desire to expand the impact of commercial tourism in the Methow Valley. Make no mistake, the Mega Spa, and other future projects to be funded by our tax dollars will be built to support the tourist trade.

Because of its provocative nature, you have to click the link to see it. This art work envokes the same feeling that I had of why I left a city professional career path and escaped to Okanagan County in 1979.

Back then it felt like the Methow Valley had a protective bubble above it that kept the out the values of ever expanding commercialism.

Now thoses forces have moved in and taken root.

The rural west has a name for people who desire to mold these natural places into what they left behind to move here, "transplants".

But you can choose to be a local instead. You can choose to give to this community in the same spirit the Wagner pool and many other community projects were given though hard work.

To me it seems to be human Folly to desire a heated wintertime swim in a climate like ours especially when you desire a Mega Spa built on the backs of those who can ill afford it.

Greed Kills.



https://banksyexplained.com/napalm-2004/

"By wittingly adding alongside two icons of American consumer culture, Mickey Mouse and Ronald McDonald, the artist creates a sickening juxtaposition with the image of Kim screaming in pain from the napalm burns."

"The seemingly innocent figures of those American icons would suggest a more sinister reality of huge corporations in the reckless pursuit of profit, immune from the consequences on the most vulnerable. "