Roe vs. Wade

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mister_coffee
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

We aren't talking about banning abortion after fifteen weeks. We are talking about banning all abortions.

And ridiculous side effects of this silly ban are roaring down at us. There is already "serious" talk about restricting interstate travel of women, prosecuting women for miscarriages, and holding people legally liable in one state for things that happened in another state, where those things are perfectly legal.

I say "serious" because supposed elected representatives and overenthusiastic district attorneys are saying those things. In reality no sane person would consider any of those things serious.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Debbie Reynolds 1989 interview recounting having to carry a dead fetus until it almost killed her.

https://crooksandliars.com/2022/06/debb ... eak-forced

Check your facts on abortion in the developed world: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ion-makes/
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

Funny, most of the rest of the developed world won’t allow abortions after 15 weeks. But I’m sure some hardcore far lefty can be trusted!
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

So women become spontaneously pregnant? I’ve worked nearly 30 years in emergency medicine, I never have seen that!

And PAL, I never said only ‘my side’ is caring but speaking up for those who can’t themselves IS a virtue!
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

David, well said.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

So even though the constitution doesn't explicitly say so, I think that women have a right to be treated as human beings and not farm animals. On the other hand, a conceptus doesn't have rights that are separable from the rights of the woman carrying it.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Yes, Ken misses the point. My choice matters in this because someone else wants women to be forced to bear a child. Abortion is a very personal choice. These are mainly men and they want control and some are very cruel and seem to want to punish women.

"Your idea that 'only my choice matters', that caring people only exist on 'your' side demonstrates the willful ignorance on your part because you don't complete the thought. Caring people and a caring govt are the ones that provide prenatal care, contraception, paid leave from work, education and a social safety net. Caring people and their govt protect 11 year old children from their family rapists and don't dictate to that child that they give birth of their sibling when that birth will endanger their own life and mark their chances for life. Caring people deal in reality that life is not black and white, that there are exceptions that have to be included in decision making."

Thanks Rideback for pointing this out. Life is indeed not black and white that Ken so desparately wants it to be.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Read my links about what a govt looks like that takes on the role of deciders for the well being of an individual, how we left that territory when slavery was abolished, you are entirely missing the point of what freedom and civil rights are all about in this Country. My links talk about the history of abortion which you seem determined to turn a blind eye to.

Your idea that 'only my choice matters', that caring people only exist on 'your' side demonstrates the willful ignorance on your part because you don't complete the thought. Caring people and a caring govt are the ones that provide prenatal care, contraception, paid leave from work, education and a social safety net. Caring people and their govt protect 11 year old children from their family rapists and don't dictate to that child that they give birth of their sibling when that birth will endanger their own life and mark their chances for life. Caring people deal in reality that life is not black and white, that there are exceptions that have to be included in decision making.

Read the links, this is a much more complicated issue than you acknowledge.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

Government does regularly ‘interfere’ when innocent life is killed, why is only your choice the one that matters? Don’t caring people speak and protect those who can’t speak or defend themselves?
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Keep in mind there are other scenarios such as saving the life of the mother, other situations where those with ill will, could misconstrue that a miscarriage was an abortion. The list could go on.
I am all about choice and no government agency interfering between me and my doctor.
You did answer my question.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

Your fingernails will never be a separate being with individual DNA! (don’t you think of yourself as a ‘man of science’?)

PAL, if we get abortions to only the scenario you describe I will tolerate your solution (that’s an actual compromise!)
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

Part of a series of observations that Alito ignored the 9th and 14th Amendment

https://reason.com/2022/06/24/alitos-ab ... amendment/

https://reason.com/2022/06/29/abortion- ... mendments/
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Ken, what I feel is my business. If only this, if only that. Where are we supposed to "get" on this issue. I believe in a woman's right to choose.
Some of the laws do not take into account what may happen after 6 wks. Some states say no abortion, no matter what. You still don't answer the question of what if a 13 yr. old is raped and becomes pregnant. Is she suppose do carry that child to term? That is cruel. But that could happen in some states.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by mister_coffee »

A cell, or even a small collection of cells, is not a baby, no more than my fingernail cuttings are a person with legal rights to my estate.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

If only you all felt that way and wrote poems for the babies’ body, maybe we could get somewhere together on this issue!
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Outstanding. You know what. Here's my fantasy and maybe I have mentioned it before.
No federal government, no state government in anyway should meddle with a woman's body. Wipe all of those "laws" off the books in every state.
No laws to govern my body. Only between a woman and her doctor. Whose business is it?
Abortion was "illegal" made so by old white men. A law was created to change that; to make it legal. This was/is the downfall.
No law to govern women's bodies.
The poem says it all.
Thanks Ray.
Pearl Cherrington
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by pasayten »

Marge Piercy: Right To Life
..
A woman is not a basket you place
your buns in to keep them warm. Not a brood
hen you can slip duck eggs under.
Not the purse holding the coins of your
descendants till you spend them in wars.
Not a bank where your genes gather interest
and interesting mutations in the tainted
rain, any more than you are.

You plant corn and you harvest
it to eat or sell. You put the lamb
in the pasture to fatten and haul it in to
butcher for chops. You slice the mountain
in two for a road and gouge the high plains
for coal and the waters run muddy for
miles and years. Fish die but you do not
call them yours unless you wished to eat them.

Now you legislate mineral rights in a woman.
You lay claim to her pastures for grazing,
fields for growing babies like iceberg
lettuce. You value children so dearly
that none ever go hungry, none weep
with no one to tend them when mothers
work, none lack fresh fruit,
none chew lead or cough to death and your
orphanages are empty. Every noon the best
restaurants serve poor children steaks.
At this moment at nine o’clock a partera
is performing a table top abortion on an
unwed mother in Texas who can’t get
Medicaid any longer. In five days she will die
of tetanus and her little daughter will cry
and be taken away. Next door a husband
and wife are sticking pins in the son
they did not want. They will explain
for hours how wicked he is,
how he wants discipline.

We are all born of woman, in the rose
of the womb we suckled our mother’s blood
and every baby born has a right to love
like a seedling to sun. Every baby born
unloved, unwanted, is a bill that will come
due in twenty years with interest, an anger
that must find a target, a pain that will
beget pain. A decade downstream a child
screams, a woman falls, a synagogue is torched,
a firing squad is summoned, a button
is pushed and the world burns.

I will choose what enters me, what becomes
of my flesh. Without choice, no politics,
no ethics lives. I am not your cornfield,
not your uranium mine, not your calf
for fattening, not your cow for milking.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold shares
in my womb or my mind.
This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
Rideback
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by Rideback »

From Bloomberg:

'Here we go again
Major news events are always fertile ground for misinformation. That was my first thought upon hearing that the Supreme Court decided to overturn Roe v. Wade on Friday, as expected. A month ago, I wrote about how misinformation had spiked in the wake of the leaked draft court ruling that signaled the court would overturn the right to abortion; in the coming weeks, I expect even more of it.

Misinformation peddlers, ever the opportunists, will advance a hodgepodge of false narratives around abortion and the Supreme Court ruling on all the major tech platforms: Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and TikTok, plus fringe far-right social networks like Gab, Parler, Rumble and TruthSocial.

Because misinformation is often repetitive and cyclical, we have a pretty good sense of the types of rumors they will spread, too. They will exaggerate unsupported claims about a favorite bogeyman movement, Antifa—a loose collective of antifascist activists—saying there is a nationwide conspiracy to hold coordinated violent rioting around this ruling. On Friday, for the first time since Dec. 8, 2020, “Q”—the anonymous online account that set off the QAnon conspiracy movement—posted online: “Are you ready to serve your country again?” (The QAnon conspiracy falsely posits that a group of global liberal elites run a child sex ring that former President Donald J. Trump will stop, and adherents have been discussing how abortion is a form of human sacrifice.) And the types of falsehoods that have circulated about abortion for as long as the movement against a woman’s right to choose has been around in the US—which is to say, decades—will receive renewed attention on social media: the false ideas, for instance, that abortion is never needed to save a mother’s life, or that abortions inevitably lead to mental health problems for women.

I know this because I have covered misinformation for the past three years, and while the narrative content of the falsehoods switch in and out, depending on the news, the tactics are often very similar.

Which is why it can be frustrating to be a witness to the social media platforms’ responses anytime another misinformation crisis erupts in real-time. When I asked Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and TikTok last month whether they planned to put up information centers—which the sites have done for elections and the Covid-19 pandemic—directing people to authoritative sources about abortion as a health issue, none of them said they would. Most said they would rely on their already-existing community guidelines to deal with this new issue.

But the ruling being released also signals some complex decision-making for the world’s largest tech platforms as the US becomes divided into states where abortion is legal, and states where it is illegal. Companies have historically adjusted their policies to fit geographically-specific legal requirements, and thirteen states have so-called trigger laws that would automatically ban abortions—including, in some of them, laws that would punish citizens for assisting pregnant people in obtaining one. Would the companies’ operations in those states geo-block information that would allow users to access accurate information supporting an abortion decision? These are open questions that we will have to see play out over the next few weeks or months.

One thing is for certain, though: abortion misinformation—a lot more of it — is about to come your way. Some of the dynamics are so well-known that it would be possible for companies to start to take some proactive steps to get ahead of the problem. What about automatically reducing the usual fear-mongering content about pallets of bricks at protest sites and “paid protesters” or training their focus on known abortion misinformation spreaders? Sites like Life News and Live Action have spread provably false claims about abortion safety, and not just once—they have track records, according to analysis by NewsGuard, a startup that rates the credibility of news sites. Companies may balk at appearing to be anything but politically neutral, but the truth remains the truth whatever your politics. And letting misinformation continue to spread on their platforms is not a neutral stance all by itself. —Davey Alba
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

I’m a “Pharisee”? Really, how? The rest of you peoples drivel is not worth my time, projection much?
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by just-jim »

Thanks, Ray, for the photo. I agree.

I’d been thinking about this - why the overwhelming support of ‘the unborn’?

But, everyone else gets ‘othered’ by the rebops….people of color, immigrants, disabled, sexually different, economically or environmentally at risk, etc etc “They don’t matter…they don’t care…they aren’t patriots…they are lazy….they are stealing from us….they cancel our votes….they don’t belong here.”

It really is a basic fascist tactic - to breed fear about ‘THOSE FOLKS’.
Unfortunately, lately, it isn’t even a very thinly veiled threat, either.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by PAL »

Nope, Ken, you only see your viewpoint. The majority of Americans believe that Roe should not have been overturned.
Like one state, like Arkansas, has the 3rd highest maternity deaths in the nation, mostly women of color. That means their after health care for women sucks. Other states too.
Gov. of Arkansas was on today, saying, oh yes, we'll increase funding, blah, blah, blah. Why didn't they before? Cause they really don't give a..
What Ray posted is not divisive to me. It is to you because you narrow your focus. Your way or the highway.
The Gov. when asked what happens if a 13 yr. old girl gets raped and he said he is sure that in time that won't apply. In time...
How would you like it if your daughter got raped and was forced to have a rapists baby? What would that do to her mentally?
Oh, just say, she would have loving kindness surrounding her and the support she needs. Bull pucky.
As the poster says, it's a feel good thing for some people. A chance to be self righteous.
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by pasayten »

dorankj wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:17 pm Whatever Ray, you mor*n! EVEN if that was true (and it’s certainly not!) that’s still no justification to kill them. Talk about your decisive Christian, hey PAL?
About what I would expect from a pharisee... An opinion that does not concern me... :-)
pasayten
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Re: Roe vs. Wade

Post by dorankj »

Whatever Ray, you mor*n! EVEN if that was true (and it’s certainly not!) that’s still no justification to kill them. Talk about your decisive Christian, hey PAL?
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