More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

dhop
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Mr. Coffee, More affordable homes for sale is a big part of the solution to affordable housing, but keeping rents affordable may be just as crucial. I am a landlord who is trying hard to keep rent on our rental homes affordable with below market rate rents. Our real estate taxes will go up $1300 if FOP’s proposition 1 is successful. I never have used the pool and never will. Our great tenants would struggle more than we will if we increased their rents. I’m sure other landlords are not as fortunate as we are and will have to increase rent to pay for the taxes. IMO, affordable housing is a much, much bigger problem than not having a $25 million mega pool complex.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Jingles wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:33 pm Pearl the problem I see with getting MVCC involved is the same people that are FOTP members are also members and officers of MVCC be like telling the fox to keep the weasels out of the hen house.
I'm not sure that is true with all the MVCC board members. I'm guessing that MVCC as an organization is opposed to the Prop 1 Metropolitan Park District. A Mega Mac would have a huge Carbon Footprint and use alot of water resources. I spoke with one of them and that person supported my No prop 1 sign at the farmers market.

Also I believe Jim B is a MVCC supporter and he spoke out against prop 1 on Methownet BB.

When I emailed MVCC about a FOP facebook post that used their name as if they supported the Mega MAC, MVCC asked the FOP to remove their name from that post. It was removed.

It may have been the same post where the FOP used the racial slur "colored".
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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At today's construction costs and interest rates, I am afraid that affordable housing will be a very tough problem to solve.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

Post by mister_coffee »

You're not going to make any kind of progress on the affordable housing problems in the valley without building more homes. Preferably affordable ones. The question is can we build enough homes quickly enough to get ahead of that problem. I just don't know.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Chris did say that MVCC was going in a different direction than what they would have liked. The same with us. I just keep thinking that MVCC wouldn't want to see this Alteera come in. Or maybe they have changed that much.
Agree we don't need anymore tourists. Prices are geared to them, I have noticed. But those coffee drinks and coffee have been expensive from the get go. I used to buy them and realized what a rip it was.
It will be interesting to see how Hans responds to the growth factor. Lots of developments are on the drawing board. By the time they get built will there be people to fill them. The Town of Twisp thinks so. They want to almost double the population. I forgot the time span.
It's very interesting to go to Town Council meetings to see what they are up to.
Strayed from the document subject, for which I am glad Chris posted.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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To coin a phrase this valley has gone to hell in a zipped handbag or at least a basket with a lid on it
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Sarah Shrock and friends have insisted we need more and more recreational facilities to attract tourists to “compete” with Bend.
Be interesting with Hans Smith as mayor of Twisp... Sarah's husband... :o :shock: :roll:
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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The ski hill was stopped. It only took numerous lawsuits and 20 yrs.
I betcha MVCC might be interested in this possible actitivy, even though I know you don't care for them Chris and Jingles. But they would have the power and money to stop this possibly

Pearl the problem I see with getting MVCC involved is the same people that are FOTP members are also members and officers of MVCC be like telling the fox to keep the weasels out of the hen house.
And personally I don't believe we need more tourist, we need businesses that respect the locals.
Restaurants are over priced for quantity and quality of food one of the grocery stores is referred to as theft way because of their prices. One Example $2.50 for a cup of coffee come on get real, how many 12 cup pot are made from a $12.00 can of grounds the prices they are charging is beyond gouging
Last edited by Jingles on Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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See other post in regards to visitors needing a pass to park in the towns. Hmm, maybe that should happen. But not charge the locals.
It's been about 6 yrs. since I've been to Hart's Pass. Miss it, but won't go up there if there are alot of cars going up and down.
Right no downhill resort but Alteera is doing things to attract people in the non winter months.
Compete with Bend and other places? What a joke.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Sarah Shrock and friends have insisted we need more and more recreational facilities to attract tourists to “compete” with Bend. E careful what you wish for. There are already mile long parking lots on Hwy 20 to access popular hiking trails, and the trip up to Hart’s Pass is now downright scary with all the traffic. More and more exposure will lead to more and more people, increasing the cost of housing so much that workers won’t be able to afford to live here. We will soon need permits to hike the trails on Hwy 20. This scenerio has happened in other tourist towns in the west. It may happen here as well, but I don’t want my tax dollars to hasten its arrival. It’s too bad that many of the young and wealthy folks moving here support Sarah’s vision. This is the biggest change I’ve seen in this valley since we changed from an extraction based economy to a tourist economy. Enough is enough.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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No one is talking about a downhills ski resort. No water for that.

We already have a destination xc ski resort. Dan just wants to expand it up Hwy 20 with talk of hydrogen powered snow cats, electric snowmobiles and big tourist races.

All that would fit in nicely with the Silver Star snow park to nowhere, two Mega MACs and future FOP recreational projects along with the tourists that Sarah Schrock wants to bring into the area. Apparently she says in the MVN that we have to complete for the those tourist dollars with Bend, Oregan and Sun Valley.

No we don't.

Future FOP cruise ship project shown below. New slogan.

Make a splash at sea. You pay, we play.
The SS Mega MAC
The SS Mega MAC
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Tried that 25 yrs. ago. "Investors" from Colorado came here and bought up property, thinking they would make a killing if the Early Winters ski resort went in. It didn't happen and they did not make the killing they wanted to. But if they held on to the properties for this long, now they would have made alot of money. To really find out, would havet go on to tax sifter, but who has time and wants to do that. Not I.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

Post by mister_coffee »

Building a destination ski resort in the valley, starting in 2023, would be throwing away perfectly good, if stupid, money.

The capital investment to build a new ski resort from scratch is on the order of $500 million dollars. Single high speed express quad lifts can cost north of $50 million each. Ski areas, by themselves, are at best marginally profitable operations.

How a ski area development makes money is with real estate. And since real estate prices here are already wildly inflated to where even rich people have to think twice about buying, it is hard to see how a new ski resort can effectively jack the real estate prices enough to make a decent return for their investors. And also since a lot of the valley has been subdivided into tiny lots it would be harder to buy up lots of land quietly, which is also a necessary first step before you'd launch a ski resort, it will just be harder and even more expensive to pull off here.

Oh, and climate change. While there is certainly great skiing here now, how confident can any of us be that there will be great skiing here in twenty years? And twenty years is probably a realistic lead time from the first proposal to when someone can hop on a gondola at Early Winters and go cut some turns.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Yes, a lot hurdles to go through. It could cost them. Perhaps the MAC was thinking of getting money from them.
There will be no destination ski resort here, if that is what they are thinking.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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PAL wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 7:04 pm
I betcha MVCC might be interested in this possible actitivy, even though I know you don't care for them Chris and Jingles. But they would have the power and money to stop this possibly.
We were members of MVCC for many decades and have agreed with a lot of their goals, especially water conservation. It's not that I don't care for them, I just don't agree with their current direction.

As far as turning the Hwy into a destination xc and fat bike resort. One hurdle is that they would need permission to do wintertime avy control using explosives. With endangered species running around up there I don't think that would work out.

A big destination tourist attraction would however fit in with the goals of the FOP Mega MAC.

I do think Dan has big pipe dream going, but to be sure, I need to do a WSDOT and FS public documents request to see if what if anything is in the works for HWY 20.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Denver, CO, February 28, 2022 -- Alterra Mountain Company announces its plans to invest $344 million in capital improvements for winter 22/23, reaching over $1 billion invested in transformational changes over the past five years. This reaffirms the company's dedication to enhance the guest experience at its 15 North American destinations and almost doubles the original financial commitment of $555 million over five years announced when the company was formed in 2018.

WOW!!!
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Forest Service will not let him.

Anyway, get a load of this! These people are into destination ski resorts.
https://www.alterramtn.co/news/alterra- ... provements
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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I thank my stars I live up Twisp River. Lower impact up here...for now.
You do have the South Creek guy that wants to make some sort of destination camp/resort...
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Methow Valley, used and abused, along with the service workers to service the elite and entitled.
Just looked at Alteera website. My, my. Could the Valley support such ventures? I would say environmental impacts would be great and I don't mean great in a good way. Too much activity. Those in the recreation industry here, seem determined to milk the dollars of tourists and the local property owners.
The ski hill was stopped. It only took numerous lawsuits and 20 yrs.
I betcha MVCC might be interested in this possible actitivy, even though I know you don't care for them Chris and Jingles. But they would have the power and money to stop this possibly.
I thank my stars I live up Twisp River. Lower impact up here...for now.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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The Hydrogen Haute Route ski trail appears to be an attempted take over of the North Cascade Hwy for Commercial use xc skiing and fat bikes including World Class races designed to attract a whole lot of tourists.

In that discussion throughout 2022, I can only read the emails from Dan Solaro that Included OCC Andy Hover, so I don't know what the replies were.

Here are some excepts from that email stream:

"Mid-winter, perfect skiing conditions for miles, and miles and miles . . . . . . . ."

"Fat Bike Birkie is an Open-Class Bike Race. There are no restrictions on the specific tire size allowed. The Birkie groomers are some of the best in the world and have the goal of providing a firm surface to ride on for the races."


"Kristen Rust is the contact at Alterra."
"Please consider joining our FREE NORDIC TRAILS funding campaign. It will provide your company with immense goodwill and at the same time alleviate some of your traffic headaches."

Note from their website: "Alterra Mountain Company curates a family of destinations, along with a range of recreation, hospitality, real-estate development, food and beverage, and retail businesses."

"If the corporate big shots see the light and step up and buy the naming rights, we can do away with all this nonsense."


"We can afford to groom the Haute Route, the best ski trail in the world."

"People will come from all over the world to ride the Haute Route through the American Alps."

"The new spending blueprints reflect the torrent of dollars coming in through higher-than-expected tax collections . . . . . "


Dan, I hope you are aware that there was, and still is a culture in existence here before you arrived. For us old time BC skiers and snowmobilers who have used that Hwy since it opened, our culture is about passing our knowledge and mentorship to others who are new here so that they may travel our mountains safety and with maximum stoke. It's a culture and spirit that values Community over dollar signs and Disney land rides.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Here is that email header. It's an interesting assortment of names and places including Jeff at Methownet,. Vail resorts, Anne at Bluesky, piston bully USA., Jerry Palm and an assortment politicians.


From: Solaro Daniel <eveningsky@hotmail.com>
To: James DeSalvo <james@methowtrails.org>; Colin B. Hales <CHales@pistenbullyusa.com>; solson1@vailresorts.com <solson1@vailresorts.com>; krust@alterramtnco.com <krust@alterramtnco.com>; president@watrails.org <president@watrails.org>
Cc: Kevin Orourke <kevin@powderbird.com>; djackson@utah.gov <djackson@utah.gov>; anne@methowbluesky.com <anne@methowbluesky.com>; Lisa.wellman@leg.wa.gov <Lisa.wellman@leg.wa.gov>; randy doyle <rdoyle@brightonresort.com>; Cascade1molson@gmail.com <Cascade1molson@gmail.com>; jeff@methownet.com <jeff@methownet.com>; Becky Studen <Becky@methowtrails.org>; Jerry Palm <palmci1@gmail.com>; dmohre@gmail.com <dmohre@gmail.com>; tom@powderbird.com <tom@powderbird.com>; andy.hover@co.okanogan.wa.us <andy.hover@co.okanogan.wa.us>; stocken@wsdot.wa.gov <stocken@wsdot.wa.gov>; Representative Adam Smith <imawa09@mail.house.gov>; Stone, Alex <Alex.Stone@mail.house.gov>; jena.yang@mail.house.gov <jena.yang@mail.house.gov>
Subject: Re: "Shovel Ready Stimulas Project"

Why do I feel like if prop 1 passes I'll be forced to pay to help move low income families out of the Valley, but somewhere close within bussing distance because the Twisp /Winthrop Metropolitan area will still need low wage workers.

I don't like that feeling.

Dr. Sherman's book "Dividing Paradise" where she points out our Valley's class blindness is starting to make a lot sense. Spot on.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

Post by Fun CH »

There is so much we don't know about how the proposed prop 1 Metropolitan Park District is planning to use our tax dollars.

For example below, here is an email from that recently obtained public documents request that asked for documents related to Mega MAC MPD prop 1. That email talks about seeking grant money for a new ski trail.

Quote from that email:

"I am unsure how Congressman Adam Smith got my email, but I am going to follow up and ask for $500,000 to jump start the Hydrogen Haute Route ski trail." End quote

Methow Trails manager (?) James DeSalvo was the first email address, but there were many more. When I saw who's names were also on the address list, it became clear to me why they support prop 1.

It's clear that our property tax dollars will be used to support, directly or indirectly, private commerical businesses that cater to recreational tourism in our Valley.

Will our property tax dollars also be funding this new ski trail? Are we now all going to be paying to support Methow Trails, their projects, their paychecks? More huts?


I never thought that my community neighbors would force me to help pay their salaries.

Vote no on prop 1.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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dhop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:22 pm FOP used a very limited survey of like-minded folks to rationalize their plans for a mega pool complex governed by a metropolitan park district. They had enough money to mail propaganda asking for our vote, but they couldn’t mail scoping letters to find out what pool option the valley wanted? IMO, they knew their proposition wouldn’t hold water, so they waged a campaign playing on the fears of those who thought their proposal was necessary to have a pool. I can’t remember many issues in the valley as divisive as the pool, and it sure didn’t need to be this way.

As Sarah Schrock wrote in her Feb. 2022, the FOP used money from an anonymous donor to hire a Seattle area company to decide what plan was "right for our community". As you state dhop, the FOP didn't bother "scoping" the community so obviously they didn't really care what the entire community thought.

Quote from Sarah's email:
"As you may know, an anonymous donor provided funds for us to hire a recreation/aquatics consulting firm to help us scope a project that's right for our community.

And in Blue's email they had a private email tree going to solicit opinions from potential supporters.

Quote from Blue's email:
"If you know anyone else who might be interested, please invite them or forward this email."

And who were the anonymous big money donors that are sheilded from public scrutiny by the FOP Political Action Committee? The FOP recieved donations earmarked for political purposes and then the FOP is listed as the donor to their PAC.

Funny that when the FOP Political narrative changed from a $20+million Mega MAC to "we don't have a plan" they accused opponents of spreading "false" information.

The facts show the FOP definitely has a plan with unelected board members and provisions in their draft interlocal agreement for highly paid "corporate officers". That plan never included addressing the concerns of our community property owners or low income families here who will be forced to pay their salaries, their bills and their debt.

I and others have dealt with some of the people involved in this who's family businesses, holding Forest Service recreational special use permits, were caught breaking the law and/ or violating the terms of their permits.

All this comes as no surprise to me or others who tried to hold those businesses and owners accountable.

Vote no on prop 1.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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Good reason for most of the FOTP board and other significant supporters to not be involved in a new plan for a pool.
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Re: More Public Documents reveal bigger plans that just a pool

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FOP used a very limited survey of like-minded folks to rationalize their plans for a mega pool complex governed by a metropolitan park district. They had enough money to mail propaganda asking for our vote, but they couldn’t mail scoping letters to find out what pool option the valley wanted? IMO, they knew their proposition wouldn’t hold water, so they waged a campaign playing on the fears of those who thought their proposal was necessary to have a pool. I can’t remember many issues in the valley as divisive as the pool, and it sure didn’t need to be this way.
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