Pasayten's Methow Valley Bulletin Board

Chris, link works for me, it's a good discussion on applying the social contract to vaccines.

I will meekly point out that I advocated giving people forced injections to save their lives. I really don't think the Nazis cared about anyone enough to force them to do anything to save lives.

And I advocated using a dull needle and strapping 'em down to demonstrate how idiotic vaccine refusal was. Perhaps that was excessive. Although my personal opinion continues to be that in the absence of medical contraindications, choosing not to get a COVID vaccine is at best obnoxiously clueless.

I think it is an open question about whether people should be able to voluntarily decline a vaccination. Freedom or no freedom. Microorganisms do not recognize our constitutional rights. If anyone can be an asymptomatic carrier of a deadly disease the rules necessarily have to be different. You might argue that people should be free to use the information available to them and make their own decisions. Which sounds good, except:

1. People are really, really bad at making complex judgements about risk. They get no better at making those judgements if they have no experience in their lifetime with what they are making a complex judgement about.
2. In a media environment saturated with misinformation and conspiracy theories, do we really expect everyone to wade through all that sewerage on their own and come to a well-informed conclusion at the end of it?
3. Information in such a situation evolves rapidly over timed which requires everyone to spend considerable time continuously tracking those changes. Some of those changes will be super important. Some of them will be irrelevant. Is everyone really supposed to figure that out on their own?
4. The information is not always available in a form easily decipherable by untrained people. This information is often technical data in the language of a highly specialized field. It also includes statistical descriptions which may or may not be decipherable to the average person.

To me, at least, letting people "do their own research" and "make their own judgements" seems to be a lazy person's way to say, "let 'em die if they can't figure it out." Is that really compassionate or even wise?

My other thought is that the whole COVID-19 episode demonstrated that our society is poorly constructed to handle a large-scale crisis that requires collective action and cooperation. Inevitably such a crisis will come along at some point and our society will not survive. I'd rather live in a society that could survive such a crisis. Based on our experiences in 2020 and 2021 I am skeptical that our society would continue to function if we encountered a novel virus that had even a 3 or 4 percent fatality rate, rather than the approximately 1 percent fatality rate that COVID-19 had. And fatality rates vary over time -- and given that COVID is now endemic in our population one has to wonder if (or when) a new variant will pop up with that higher fatality rate (I note that both SARS and MERS, closely related to COVID, had much higher fatality rates than that). Yes, we could rapidly deploy a new vaccine for that variant. My questions are: would people take a new vaccine? and could we deploy it rapidly enough? I don't think we can be super confident about the answer to either of those questions.

Oh, and to fully Godwin this thread, I will point out that Hitler opposed vaccine mandates:

https://jacobin.com/2021/09/vaccine-man ... ion-policy

Contrary to claims about “fascist” vaccine mandates currently circulating on the Right, the Nazis actually relaxed German vaccine mandates — and hoped doing the same for people they conquered would kill them faster.

Rideback wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:40 pm The question of the social contract is front row still and again.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1919666117

that links to a news letter sign up page.

The question of the social contract is front row still and again.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1919666117

mister_coffee wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:14 pm Forcing people to take medication at gunpoint is very American and we were doing it long before Nazis even existed :

https://www.npr.org/2011/04/05/13512145 ... 0railroads.

And even today , people with tuberculosis can be imprisoned if they refuse to take their medications or refuse to wear a mask in public.

yea well slavery used to be legal here in the US and was wide spread in Nazi Germany.

Today rounding people up and injecting them with a dull needle loaded with a covid vaccine against their wishes would fit right in with those ideologies, or any authoritarian system for that matter. Notice we don't round people up for flu vaccines either.

The point is, you are participating in the great divide

You, and a minority of people, call the right Nazis and the right calls the left Nazis.Where does it end? What is the purpose? Is it done to elevate your status while demonizing the others?

This hostile division is exactly what Russia wants and actively pursues as policy and yes both sides participate in it and therefore both sides are part of problem.

Don't be a Russian tool.

As far as TB. TB has a different history and pathology then Covid and born from poverty. The human rights of TB victims is starting to be recognized.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5473060/

"TB patients are bearers of rights. These rights are universal, interdependent, inalienable, and non-negotiable. Our governments must understand that as duty bearers they have a duty—not an option—to protect, respect, and fulfill rights and must be willing to account for failing to do so. In order to give effect to this obligation, they must legislate comprehensively on TB so that there is little room for guesswork when it comes to human rights."

".The right to health is one of the many rights implicated in the TB response. It comprises the right to access health facilities and protection against epidemic diseases. The right to health requires the realization of a number of underlying determinants, such as safe drinking water, food, adequate nutrition, housing, healthy occupational and environmental conditions, education, and so on."

Forcing people to take medication at gunpoint is very American and we were doing it long before Nazis even existed :

https://www.npr.org/2011/04/05/13512145 ... 0railroads.

And even today , people with tuberculosis can be imprisoned if they refuse to take their medications or refuse to wear a mask in public.

mister_coffee wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:25 pm Let's just say, that if your group regularly quotes Adolf Hitler, or thinks Adolf Hitler was "right", it might be reasonable to assume that it is fascist.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/pol ... 346453007/

https://money.yahoo.com/republican-urge ... vU_TE1Dkie

https://newrepublic.com/post/174101/nor ... of-context

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5333 ... ler-quote/

I can't really believe that all of these educated, upper middle class and upper class white people do not know EXACTLY what they are saying.

To keep going on this very topic: going after a marginalized group who doesn't exactly have a whole lot of sympathy from the public (e.g. trans people) is something the Nazis would have done in a heartbeat, because the best way to get people to do ridiculous things is to have them hate someone whose differences make some folks uncomfortable.

well you sounded like a Nazi when you wanted to round anti-vaxxers up and inject them with "dull needle". Does that make you a Nazi? Probably not but it certainly gives a reason for people to call you and other Democrats Nazis, the same rhetoric you're using directed at them.

While I don't support what you said during the pandemic I do support your right to say it.

All this nastiness for what purpose exactly? Because you like the division?

So lets check the USA history of genocide,slavery and rounding up Japanese Americans and placing them in concentration camps during WWII.

Roosevelt was a Democrat who interned Japanese Americans during WWII.

Southern Democrats promoted slavery and Jim Crow laws.

Andrew Jackson was a Democrat who signed into law the Indian Removal Act

The southern Democrats quit in the Democratic party and joined the Republican Party after Democratic president Lyndon Johnson signed into law the 1964 Civil Rights Act. But remember Johnson did this while severely escalating the Vietnam war that ultimately led to the death of over 3.3 million Vietnamese and almost 60,000 brave American soldiers and maimed countless others.

So perhaps we should wash the blood off our hands first before we continue demonizing others, because after all that was the first step that lead to all the fatal policies that I pointed out above.

Oh and I see Jim chimed in with his usual intelligent comments.

.
….and then we have GUILTY, fascist, fatso, Depends donnie - who posts an address for the Obama’s home.

Surprise- one of his deranged followers showed up there with a gun!

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/a ... cutors-say
.

Let's just say, that if your group regularly quotes Adolf Hitler, or thinks Adolf Hitler was "right", it might be reasonable to assume that it is fascist.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/pol ... 346453007/

https://money.yahoo.com/republican-urge ... vU_TE1Dkie

https://newrepublic.com/post/174101/nor ... of-context

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5333 ... ler-quote/

I can't really believe that all of these educated, upper middle class and upper class white people do not know EXACTLY what they are saying.

To keep going on this very topic: going after a marginalized group who doesn't exactly have a whole lot of sympathy from the public (e.g. trans people) is something the Nazis would have done in a heartbeat, because the best way to get people to do ridiculous things is to have them hate someone whose differences make some folks uncomfortable.

mister_coffee wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:48 pm Sometimes you also need to stand up for what is right, "divisive" or not. So where exactly would you draw the line? Going to be a bit late if you decide to draw that line when you are on the train to the concentration camp.

I draw the line at exhibiting the same behavior that you dislike in others.

If you don't like the Trump's Behavior, don't act like him.

Is your last sentence something Trump might say or not?

Sometimes you also need to stand up for what is right, "divisive" or not. So where exactly would you draw the line? Going to be a bit late if you decide to draw that line when you are on the train to the concentration camp.

Written by a Republican:

https://michiganadvance.com/2021/07/03/ ... f-freedom/

We didn’t escape the collapse of our democratic republic with the Jan. 6 insurrection. We merely avoided it happening that day. As we join our families, friends, and neighbors to celebrate July Fourth this year, let it serve as a stark reminder that the Republicans have spent every day since the attempted coup working to fulfill what they intended to achieve that day — autocratic rule. Never forget that though they are a distinct minority, they have the passionate support of tens of millions among us.

And the author, Jeff Timmer, is:

Jeff Timmer is a political consultant, strategist, and Warren Zevon fan. He was Executive Director of the Michigan Republican Party and served as a Republican on the Michigan Board of State Canvassers. He is a Senior Advisor to the Lincoln Project and Co-Founder of Republicans and Independents for Biden.

Even though this article was written in 2021 it still holds true.

SharonLaVonne wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:25 am Happy 4th of July - America is under severe attack by the Republican Party - voter suppression, banning books, endangering woman, immigrants, Let's start with putting that disgusting Traitor, Donnie DumDum Trump in prison for life.

Hang on to your freedom - Rethugs are coming for it.

Sharon

your post would carry more weight without all the divisive derogatory rhetoric.

Its up to the courts to decide who is guilty of committing a crime, not the court of the interent. An American value is the principal of innocent until PROVEN guilty. Perhaps we should focus more on American values on the 4th of July.

Happy 4th of July - America is under severe attack by the Republican Party - voter suppression, banning books, endangering woman, immigrants, Let's start with putting that disgusting Traitor, Donnie DumDum Trump in prison for life.

Hang on to your freedom - Rethugs are coming for it.

Sharon